Hi y'all.
It's been a while since I spent much time online, but for a good reason. I've been hard at work on my design for an extremely high efficiency earth bermed passive solar dome home using renewable and recycled materials, and the best in alternative energy concepts.
My architects are extremely enthusiastic about the design and what it means to the future of sustainable home design.
One tough part has been in trying to dodge the frequent problem of finding certain materials without having to go into the expensive and wasteful custom designed item situation.
One part of this is that I want to use recycled glass in very thick slabs as a nice thermal storage medium as part of several high mass walls, but which will allow light through to various extents and produce pleasant lighting effects which further enhance the enjoyment of the living areas. Functionally it will be similar to glass block walls and design elements as we see in so many structures lately, but will have the added advantage of high mass for thermal storage and it being from a recycled source.
So the question is, does anyone know a good source for these, preferably in the Ohio region, or am I going to have to go to a local glass resmelting facility and have them make these as a custom item? I'd really like to find them in some standard sizes such as 4'x8'x1', and yes I know they will need special handling due to extreme weight.
Thoughts anyone?
It's been a while since I spent much time online, but for a good reason. I've been hard at work on my design for an extremely high efficiency earth bermed passive solar dome home using renewable and recycled materials, and the best in alternative energy concepts.
My architects are extremely enthusiastic about the design and what it means to the future of sustainable home design.
One tough part has been in trying to dodge the frequent problem of finding certain materials without having to go into the expensive and wasteful custom designed item situation.
One part of this is that I want to use recycled glass in very thick slabs as a nice thermal storage medium as part of several high mass walls, but which will allow light through to various extents and produce pleasant lighting effects which further enhance the enjoyment of the living areas. Functionally it will be similar to glass block walls and design elements as we see in so many structures lately, but will have the added advantage of high mass for thermal storage and it being from a recycled source.
So the question is, does anyone know a good source for these, preferably in the Ohio region, or am I going to have to go to a local glass resmelting facility and have them make these as a custom item? I'd really like to find them in some standard sizes such as 4'x8'x1', and yes I know they will need special handling due to extreme weight.
Thoughts anyone?
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 7:05 AMIn that size will a recycled glass block (which might have a lot of different glass "types" in it) be prone to cracking from thermal stress? I would love to hear your experience with this. You should be able to do a lot of the smelting yourself. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 7:13 AMHi B,
I don't think thermal stress will be much of a problem. We are talking about passive solar and only a few degrees fluctuation at a very low specific impulse level, far less than what someone would get putting a jar in the dishwasher or using a candle holder.
I know we could smelt some ourselves, but that would involve getting the equipment and I would much rather support a business that is using thermal recovery methods to use heat from the cooling stage to preheat the next batch to be smelted. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 7:42 AMI've done passive solar and the potential for several tens of degress is posible and spot heat to close to a hundred degrees. It is the large thermal mass that makes the whole mass and room fluctuate a few degrees. The thing about a diswasher is that you have low thermal mass and you heat the entire glass at pretty much the same time. With large thick glass which has a pretty low thermal conduction the solar side will heat and will get very hot. Now it all depends on the coefficients of expansion. If the slab were all made from discarded pyrex measuring cups I would think no problem. But old window glass, bottles, and who know what. I would have to look at coefficients of expansion first to get a good feeling.
Don't underestimate passive solar. A one square meter window area provides 1,000 watts of power on a clear day. I have done passive solar with large window areas and seen temps rise over 120 deg. F on a winter day with the collector material getting warmer than that. For passive solar sometimes you have to worry more about cooling than the heating. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 1:47 PMHow interesting and what a novel concept--Walls that let in light but are yet durable? Good luck with that and I do agree with b when he says you need to smelt.
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 2:00 PMAll of which are quite valid observations, but not really an issue in this application, or most home applications of this particular approach.
Of course one of the biggest causes of such thermal swings are insufficient thermal storage, which I intend to avoid.
Of course expansion is always an issue with almost any material, especially a brittle one, but that has been pretty well addressed by the methods already used for using glass block or heavy glass as a flooring material such as some malls and office buildings do. I fully expected to have to use some form of bedding material to prevent chipping and cracking at the points of contact with other materials.
The cooling issue is addressed by regulating the angle of the solar exposure in two ways, though both are largely regulated by a specially constructed shroud over the area where the outside solar exposure is. It overhangs by about three feet so it greatly reduces the solar exposure during the months and times when the sun is high in the sky.
Once I get some clearer blueprints I will try to post something a bit more visual too.
-
-
-
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 4:28 PMi would think using smaller, but just as thick would be more practical. what do you think? and piece them together with a metal grid and silicone.
my reasoning being you could handle them easier and have less chance of expansion affecting your hard work. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:24 PMCertainly good reasoning Mark, and we may end up having to do just that. Or find a way to make solid core glass blocks and use them the same way that people currently use the hollow ones.
-
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 9:17 AMI think you're going to have a major practical problem making a one foot thick slab of glass. When you cast glass, as it cools it requires an "annealing" period to relieve internal stresses that develop while cooling. in the book Techniques of kiln Formed Glass they say that a two-inch thick slab of glass requires 6.5 days of annealing. Annealing time is a geometric relationship, so it looks to me like you would need to hold a one-foot thick piece at about 1000 degrees F for something like 300 days! Very expensive & unbelievably energy intensive. This is why you have never seen an actual one foot thick piece of glass.
And glass is not as clear as you think it is. Find a 12"x12"x1/2" piece of glass, cover the front & back and look through the edge. At. best you just see a glow.
Water is actually a better storage medium per cubic foot than glass. Glass's specific heat is .25 btu/pound-degree F Water's is 1.0 So a cubic foot of glass weighing 160 pounds stores 40 btu/degree F, while a cubic foot of water, weighing about 75 pounds is 75 btu/degree F. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 9:37 AMMistake in the post above. A cubic foot of water weighs about 60 pounds & stores 60 btu/degree F -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:27 PMNo problem Bob, we all make typos.
Quick.... How many cubic inches in a gallon? :-)
Anyway, I agree that overall water is a better choice for thermal storage, and we will be using that a great deal. The thick glass just has potential as a nice design element in certain portions of the interior layout.
We're looking for something that is extremely eco efficient but still screams GQ and Better Homes and Gardens as well. Eco living with style.
It's one of the best ways to get the general public to warm up to the concept. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:52 PMStacked glass can indeed be quite beautiful. I've added some photos to the tribe collection of some examples. If you have a source for used 1/4" glass, I'd do it! -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:09 PMThis also reminds me of something.
There is a lot of beauty that can be manifested by using glass in combination with water, and of course there would be passive thermal storage and transfer benefits as well.
For example the many natural forms of cast and blown glass that have been put into various ponds and pools type of settings that contain water. It has some very interesting translucency and refractory properties which can be quite gorgeous.
Even a recycled glass mosaic laid into the bottom of a small basin of water can be quite artistic.
There was one artist that did amazing glass flower and coral shapes and put them into a false bottom under a pool, which had a thick safety glass layer above them, and it was just stunning. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Fri, November 9, 2007 - 7:20 PMHi-
Slabs (called "dalles") of glass are available from Kokomo in Indiana and from Blenko in West Virginia. There is another company in France which makes dalles, too, near Lyon. The comments which others have written about the high cost (both the equipment to melt and pour glass slabs and the energy to make runs) and the tricky physics involved with glass (annealing times and stresses bound in mixtures of glasses with different properties) are all true. I do have the name of a company in the Great Lakes region which sells equipment to set up a shop and make your own dalles, but it will be around $270,000.00 to tool up a site, before adding in energy costs to actually run the furnace.
The dalles measure approximately 8' wide by 12' long by 1' thick, weigh around seven to nine pounds each, depending on the color, and cost around $12 each before shipping (depending on color). The colors range from clear to very dark hues of indigo. Be aware that the darker the color of the glass the hotter it will be; in bright sun a clear dalle can be almost cool to the touch whereas a dark blue dalle next to it will nearly burn your hand.
www.kog.com/Hot/Dalles.html
www.blenkoglass.com/blenkoco...verre.htm
Blenko is also making the hollow architectural glass blocks in various colors.
These dalles are used for making dalle de verre stained glass windows, as in the National Cathedral in D.C. and in St. Mary's in SF.
I am sure I have seen glass from slabs which are much thicker and more crude, with bubbles and layers of different densities, which may (in fact, probably) are produced by recycling bottles and suchlike. Sometimes big chunks of this stuff are available at garden centers, pet stores, and interior decorating places as color accents for aquariums (instead of big rocks) and gardens or suchlike. No idea where that stuff comes from, but it looks as if the slab would have been about a foot thick before someone took a sledge hammer and broke it up into artsy chunks.
Best,
AlaskaSteven -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 3:55 AMThanks for the input and sources Steve.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Inch Thick Glass
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 9:21 PMIf your thick-glass options all turn out to be unpalatable, you may want to substitute tumbled recycled glass shards for gravel/sand in an adobe or tinted cement matrix. This is a little-used but fascinating technique. If the glass concentration is high enough for direct physical contact of particles throughout, the wall will slightly glow on the inside in daytime while transmitting most light energy into the wall. The text I saw had specific methods for calculating proper mixture per given load requirements, etc.... Good Luck and keep up the good work. -
-
Re: Inch Thick Glass
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 3:52 AMHey Rob,
Good thoughts.
I have some pretty nice pics of that method being applied in some high mass heat storage walls, also of it being used for making mosaics in the floors. -
-
Re: Inch Thick Glass
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 12:39 PMFascinating!
Could you post a couple/few of those photos into this tribe's gallery?
Thanks.
-
-
Re: Inch Thick Glass
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 7:48 PM
Such an elegant concept. Do you recall the text you saw the formula in? A citation for a tried-and-true mix recipe would be great.
Thanks! -
-
Re: Inch Thick Glass
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 2:44 PMNot off the top of my head at the moment. I am kind of out of it with a cold.
I am fairly sure it was either mother earth news or one of the Rodale publications, but they are piled up in large boxes and completely unsorted at the moment. I can't guarantee I will find the article or any time soon, sorry.
It should be a fairly straight forward inlay job though along the lines you see detailed in many of the books in Lowes and other hardware stores.
-
-
Re: Inch Thick Glass
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 7:47 PMI saw this glass "sand" in a public garden in Oakland, it is marvelous in it's own right...
-
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 1:39 PMVerminator in your heat mass storage wall you could use glass and water circulated into hot water tanks as storage devices located at another area. One person built a fire place mantel out of stone etc large thermal mass but in areas not too close to the fire box he had large wine bottles as ports through the mass.(bottoms facing out and horizontal in the wall, tops were removed by filling with water and then a layer of oil on the water, insert a red hot poker and the class fractures at the oil water level, a quick jab is needed with the poker, then tap the glass if it has not fully seperated the top from the sides and bottom) . Also through the whole mass he had copper coils that were cast in the mass that would either pull heat from the mass and then store it in the hot water tanks or return the heat back to the mass. It is like an indoor passive water solar collector that can be possibly be used to preheat the intake of a domestic hotwater tank or possibly subpliment in floor heat depending on layout and heat requirement,etc. My old computer died a very nasty death and I lost the many links I had saved. His set up was a south facing wall with both water circulating through it as well as open air ports that he was going to install duct fans on thermostats to aid in flow.It spanned 2 floors and the second floor was where he had south windows with blinds to control heat gain from top half. dark rock was used at 2nd floor level and lighter colours at main floor level so it would not be too strong an entity in the cathedral style living room. I remember the wine bottles were huge as they stood almost as tall as a wine carboy. He placed them like 2 large glass tumblers on their sides with the mouths facing eachother. He also used the same method in the outside house walls. The home was a stack wall by design. -
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 5:51 AMAll some great points, thanks.
The design I am using is an earth bermed modified dome structure with a large central core/fireplace/stairs and the floor has passive thermal heating tubing all through it which also ties into the stone core around the fireplace, this way it is also easy to supplement with a heat pump system or other source of heat or cooling. The zone controls are intended to control options for funneling off excess heat to a high mass stone and water based area below the structure.
There are without a doubt many great ways to use glass in such settings, due to the high mass and pleasant visual characteristics as well as the fairly inert and safe nature of the material. We don't need materials that outgas toxins into a fairly sealed structure.
-
-
Re: Large slab recycled glass as thermal storage medium?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 1:21 PMIf you go with melting your own glass you might consider adding some lead to make it a tad less friable.
I don't know how much you'd need to get around the need to temper your glass but it's been my experience that all blown, molded , formed and and cast glass needs a good long tempering or it's internal stresses will shatter it just sitting there.